Retooling

That's right everyone, we've reached that point in our growth as a system. the point where we start reevaluating preexisting aspects of the system to make sure that things remain as streamlined and fair as possible. This is also where we can start cleaning things up for potential publication. Minor editorial changes do not need to go through the Retooling process. Only things that would fundamentally change how the ability functions, either alone or with other abilities.

For format of posts here please either re-post or link back to the ability, ability path, race, weakness, etc. that you're suggesting needs retooling. Also make your comments as to what you think needs to be reworked about it and leave your suggestion(s) for possible ways to go about it.

Other mods will then discuss, debate, worry, plot, and basically nitpick every aspect until a decision is made as to whether to change the thing (and how much) or leave it be. All changes must have the approval of at least two mods (yourself excluded).

Please add all topics to be discussed to the list below. Not a mod, but see something that you think needs to be changed? Go ahead and post your idea (remember to link to current aspect). Most mods check the site on a routine basis and would be happy to add to the list of things to discuss for you.

Please use the following format, removing the * from the coding:

<*b>Current:<*/b> This is where you repost or link to the current mechanic. The coding for a link is this: <*a href="(url here) ">Name of Ability Here<*/a>

<*b>Proposed Change:<*/b> How do you desire to change it?

<*b>Reasoning:<*/b> Why do you feel this would be a good change to make?

<*b>Cons:<*/b> What problems would making this change cause?


Things To Be Discussed
Phoenixes
Energy Vulnerability




Things To Be Changed





~@~

Current: I am linking to Death Messenger.

Proposed Change: I propose moving Scythe (currently fourth slot) to the third slot and the required armor to fourth slot.

Reasoning: As it currently stands this path does not stack with the Fighter path without either duplicating the armor or picking up two armors. The proposed change would eliminate this problem, making builds for the scythe more efficient. I do not see any thematic or mechanical reason preventing this change. It would bring Death Messenger into line with other weapon specific paths (Archer, Swordmaster, Ronin) which stack with Fighter without problems. Why should Death Messenger be the odd duck?

Cons: Due to the rule about ability paths that they must be taken in order, this might cause problems with preexisting builds. Fortunately, this change is small enough that it shouldn't require any rebalancing of paths. This means little to no rebuilding is necessary if this change is implemented.

I see no problem with your change to Death Messenger. the problem you mention is also off set by the fact that there is currently only one character that's a scythe build. minimum effect if we go with it which I suggest we do. One vote for.

Current: I am linking to Phoenix as well as copying the weakness. Their racial weakness is: Reincarnation Weakness; moderate. When a phoenix is reborn with the Contingency/Resurrection abilities, he loses 2 points from every attribute. These points must be regained through experience, which is lowered by two levels worth, and the phoenix loses any abilities dependent on the lost slots. (0 points gained; these points add +2 Magic, +2 Resistance, +1 Swiftness)

Proposed Change: I propose substituting their current racial weakness for Flashbacks (Resurrection) at a severe. Any time they are resurrected by any means, they must make a Resistance check against your own Magic or be stunned for 3 turns, taking no actions on the turns they are stunned. (0 points gained; these points add +4 Magic, +2 Resistance, +1 Swiftness)

Reasoning: As it stands currently, Phoenixes are getting the short end of the stick. Now that we have opened up their signature ability (Contingency [Resurrection]) for anyone to take, there is no reason to play a Phoenix and have such a huge drawback when you could get it for free. The flavor just isn’t worth the drawback. The proposed change is a better option because it keeps their flavor intact while making them more appealing. The proposed change also ups the number of points gained through their racial weakness, requiring less minimum attributes.

Cons: I see two possible downsides to this change. First one is that it would require a reworking of the racial entry to account for the changes. It would not be as simple as changing out the weakness. The racial modifiers would need to be reworked as well. It wouldn’t take much time to implement the change, but it would take longer than a simple swap.

Secondly, we might start seeing a lot more Phoenixes. Everyone has their favorite races, though, and since Phoenix’s racial abilities do not build towards any basic ability paths, this might not happen.

You bring up a valid point, Relish. Phoenixes do get the short end of the Resurrection stick. Thematically, they should have an easier time of it than other characters, to whom the Resurrection should not be as natural.

While your suggestion is a good one and perfectly workable, I think we should try to keep the weakness closer to the original if possible. Thus I suggest the following as an alternative:

Proposed Change: Make the -12 attribute points a temporary penalty. Let's say: Reincarnation Weakness; moderate. When a phoenix is reborn with the Contingency/Resurrection abilities, he temporarily loses 2 points from every attribute. This penalty lasts a number of days equal to the phoenix's level plus 2 and cannot be healed by magic. These penalties stack with each other, though each set have its own time. (A 7th level phoenix dies and comes back via his Contingency (Resurrection) ability. He suffers a -2 to every attribute for 9 days. A week later, he dies again. For two days, he suffers a -4 to every attribute before the previous penalty expires and he drops back down to -2 to every attribute for another week.) The phoenix loses any abilities dependent on the lost slots in the meantime. If at any time, the phoenix is reduced to 0 in any attribute due to this ability, he drops into a coma-like state until his attribute score is once again in the positive numbers. A phoenix cannot be reduced to a negative attribute score via this ability. (0 points gained; these points add +2 Magic, +2 Resistance, +1 Swiftness)

Reasoning: It's closer to what Peanut Butter had originally while also being closer to what most moderate weaknesses do. If someone wants to include the experience cost for Resurrections done this way, I'm open to including it again as long as we also bump up the severity of the weakness. Let me just say, that doing so would once again put the Phoenix in a severe disadvantage compared to other characters with this Contingency and isn't that what Relish is trying to stop?

Another option if either of the above proposals are unacceptable:

Proposed Change: Energy Vulnerability (Player's Choice, cannot be the element that the phoenix's Fire Attack is aligned with) at a moderate or even a severe.

Reasoning: A phoenix, in every myth and story, is a bird very connected to the elements (usually fire, but occasionally ice/winter, wind, or even water). It therefore make sense, thematically, that strong in one would be weak in another (usually the opposite). Upping the severity would still change the racial modifiers but lower the minimum attributes.

This would also make it to where a Phoenix's weakness is no longer connected to his ability to come back without the aid of a Healer. A Phoenix is supposed to have an easier time of it, not a harder one. Aren't they?

I approve the change to Death Messenger but want a backup sent to me for records. I've been told the other retools are being replanned by those who posted them so I'll wait on the new versions before I comment.

Ah yes, the additional addendum that I wished to make is actually a general addendum to a combination at large, namely the combination of Contingency with Resurrection. As it stands, a body is still required for a contingent Resurrection. For things like the phoenix, this makes little sense seeing as how they were supposed to rise from their ashes (thus, no remains.)

The proposal I have is that, where this combination is concerned, the self-resurrection should be treated as Greater Resurrection for the purposes of dealing with the characters remains.

::smacks his forehead:: You're right, Mustard. We hadn't been discussing things like we should. Arbitrary decisions are not the point here. ::cracks knuckles:: Okay, so to said discussion:

I do like your idea of using Energy Vulnerability as the weakness best of all of the possibilities put forth. Your point is very valid. Phoenixes are supposed to have an easier time of Resurrection than most characters. I'm concerned about the flexibility of it though. Yes, changing the thematical presentation of an aligned ability changes the mechanic as well, but how many players currently are known to be aware of that potential? 3 including the guy who made the ruling. Maybe we should make it a fixed thing and have storytellers approve changes on a case by case basis?

But why a severe? Moderate works just as well. Yes, there's points left over that you have to buy with Character Points. Three points. Not that big a deal.

I also agree with that stipulation for the Phoenixes' Resurrection behaving as Greater Resurrection. How would we phrase that for the entry though?

Okay, I'll go for the more ridged weakness. [thinking out loud] Fire Attack is normally a fire-based ability, so weak against either water-based or ice-based abilities? Water would probably be best considering how the mechanics for Ice works in AVA. And there's no particular reason for the weakness to be a severe other than those three points.

So Water Vulnerability at moderate? I'll vote for that. That makes it having two votes. Just needing a third to finalize it. I'll see what PB is doing sometime soon.

And I don't know how we'd write that function into the Phoenix entry in Races--but an FAQ on the matter would be most helpful. This is, of course, moot if Greater Resurrection does not make it out of Development.

Current: Energy Vulnerability is a Weakness. It causes you to take X percentage of extra damage from attacks of a specified energy (Ice, Wind, Fire, Eldritch, etc.).

Proposed Change: I propose that we change it from the current of X percentage to a -2 (minor), -4 (moderate), or -6 (severe) on Resistance rolls against the magical attacks of the specified energy.

Reasoning: I feel that this would really simplify the math surrounding this weakness, thus making it far more appealing to players and GMs alike. AVA's beauty is her simplicity--This would be an enhancement to that beauty.

Cons: Um...It would be far nicer than it was previously and some might call it too lenient?

Oi, I was looking around and found an inconsistancy.

Toughen Armor
And
Second Skin

Now, by what I understand, in order for someone with Hide Armor to get Second Skin, they have to get Toughen Armor, which by what I'm seeing, can't be done, b/c the Pre-requisties don't allow that. Just pointing that out, since it affects a certain character getting some much needed defense. A quick change would be much apperiated.

It sounds like I just need to add Hide Armor to the requirements for Toughen Armor. Thanks for pointing that out.

Update! I added Hide Armor to the possible required armors for Toughen Armor and took it a step further by adding Bone Armor to the possible required armors for Second Skin.